Transcending civility
Melanie Strell kindly wonders why Hugh Reynolds used “Hi Ho Silver, Oy Vey” as his headline directed towards Sheldon Silver’s recent woes. I don’t wonder at all. He wanted to call attention to Mr. Silver being Jewish.
I’ve found Reynolds to be offensive on more than one occasion; his remarks about Maurice Hinchey stand out for me. However, this one transcends civility. It borders on an anti-Jewish attitude and warrants an apology. Frankly, it was an editorial failure.
Meyer Rothberg, Saugerties
Time for the trail
Growing up in Olivebridge we often wondered when the train might come through along those abandoned tracks in Shokan. As a kid, the idea of a train ride seemed like it might be fun. But that train never came. It still hasn’t, 25 years later.
Now I live and work in Uptown Kingston, where walking and biking are my preferred modes of transportation. Weeks can go by without getting in my car.
A state-of-the-art urban trail will be well used and welcome by all who live and work in Kingston. Although I’m sure the network of trails will get much use for recreation by families and all who live and visit Kingston (and I do look forward to being able to get on my bike in Kingston and ride west out to the Ashokan, to Rosendale, the Strand or Marbletown) — it is the rail trail’s value as a network of safe, sustainable paths of transportation — everyday — that I value most.
Seeing these long defunct publicly owned corridors turned into a network of urban trails — which supports a more sustainable, healthy lifestyle while lowering the cost of living and carbon footprint of Kingston residents like me — is worthy of our support.
Surely those who oppose this don’t live and work in Kingston.
Siena Wright, Kingston
How to win friends
It seems to me that ISIS needs a new public-relations firm. Do they really believe they can threaten the entire world by executing private citizens from everywhere? “There! That’ll teach you infidels.” Really?
Aren’t they just pissing everybody off and getting one country after another to join the coalition against them? Why would anyone want to provoke the entire world to fight against them? How preposterous is that?
But then, when it comes to U.S. foreign policy matters, we’ve been down the rabbit hole for a long time. Remember the non-existent WMD’s that were the excuse for getting us
into this quicksand quandary? And back when those pajama-clad rice farmers in Vietnam were such a threat to our national security that we had to go and kill a few million of them. Now, they’re happily doing all their business in dollars.
Maybe ISIS ought to hire Dick Cheney’s public relations people, he knows how to get the job done. Well, maybe they already have?!
Liam Watt, Mount Tremper
What public space is for
I am a bit hesitant to weigh in on the rail vs. trail controversy. I enjoy trains and trails for different reasons. As an attorney who practiced for decades in Kingston and a former property owner there, I am pleased to see positive developments for the city, represented by both the success of this fall’s tourist trains and the impressive trail progress made by the Kingston Greenline group.
I also look at the rail trail issue with my attorney hat on. When I consider the conflicting plans for the corridor between Hurley and Phoenicia, I see the reality that the railroad company has been unable to maintain, much less develop, more than a few miles in its 20-plus year control of the property. It may have seemed a good choice at the start, but this is a huge tract of scenic publicly owned land. It should be developed with its beauty preserved for as many users, with the least environmental degradation, for as much of the year as possible. I encourage the county legislature to create policy that preserves the property for that purpose so that planning can move forward rather than wait for what certainly seems like the inevitable end of the railroad’s leasehold. Our elected leaders have a responsibility to steward county property effectively.
As much as I like trains, I see the railroad’s proposal as the passion of train enthusiasts. I have visited and lived near places with trails for hiking and cycling and I have seen how much use they attract. They offer accessible exercise, outdoor education and safe cycling to work. People use them every day. This is what public space is for.
Richard J. Goldman, Woodstock
Mesers goldmsn,reothenberg,wright and watt:
What a wonderful day to be reading the Kingston Times!
Reasoned views, well presented. Wanted and needed!
Special thanks to every one of you.
Siena, I would do a little more research before making such a bold statement about people who don’t share your views of the railroad. Many of us who work in Kingston and many who live there support rail with trail along with the economic growth it brings. The railroad brought close to 30,000 people to kingston last year. 30,000 tourists that came to spend money….and they did just that. Just think of how many pastries you could have sold if you approached the railroad and asked them to include you on their list of places to eat.
If you have any doubts about this, just go ahead and ask those that did.
The Catskill Mountain Railroad has some young, bright and energetic people on the board. Take some time out and meet them before you write your next letter.
The “railroad” was a 2 mile novelty road… great. Not a problem. Do it.
Don’t tie up 30 miles of trail for a 2 mile ride.
There is a concept called “reality”… that is willfully and deceptively missing from the Catskill RR Company, a private for profit company, that insists on taking a ride on the shoulders of the public lands.
I’m sure Aesop has a lovely story someplace that would fit this to a T. Here’s one after a quick search:
” To be satisfied with one’s lot is better than to desire
something which one is not fitted to receive”
And another:
“He who does a thing well does not need to boast”
Why don’t your man up and put your real name on your reply to my comment?
Part of the reason it was only two miles this year was because the so much time and money needed to extend and expand the service was tied up in fighting willfully blind efforts to kill the railroad. And yet it brought a much-needed financial shot of adrenalin anyway. What is willfully deceptive, Mr. K., is your lack of recognition of what a boon it was to the local and regional economy and how much bigger it can become for the benefit of all. Funny how even in the face of facts some people refuse to see this. Let’s hope their voluntary blindness doesn’t put an end to this regionally-valuable and irreplaceable resource.
reply to citizen k: you people say the railroad is bad because it is a for profit company, and that we are riding on the shoulders of public lands. for profit is in name only as ALL of our money goes back into the county’s asset (the whole corridor) in the repair and improvement of the right of way. none of our board of directors get paid as none of our volunteers either, even reimburement of travel expenses to get to the railroad (some of us travel 100 miles), and none of our stockholders get a dime in dividends. now most of our so called “profits” go to pay for lawyers, so the county cant tear up our lease before it’s time. read the latest 5 year plan and if your are still not convinced that the railroad’s interst in in the welfare of the community and not in our pockets, then you are not seeing the future of tourism as the way to make this county a world class destination.
I don’t say it’s “bad” because it is private, I just say it is private vis non profit and that must have a bearing on the operation. It’s not just self interest, but dollar interest that has an effect.
It is naive, disingenuous, self deceptive to put oneself outside of that truth “To thine own self be true… and thou cans’t be false to any man.” Weather that self deception is deliberate of not,
Post the link to the 5 year plan and add some comments about it. Let’s see if that holds water.
Address the shared use of the existing right of way.
If there are no profits at all, over all these years, then the RR is, for tax purposes, a hobby.
The “private” aspect is to tie up an asset for the long haul betting on the come, a big payout, and keeping the running costs down… it’s speculation, and there is a ton of lost opportunity costs to the public, like investors that sit on property and wait for real estate to rise and leave holes in the cityscape as the expense of the neighborhood, the city.
Properly, a city can and ought to raise taxes on unused property on a regular basis to discourage speculation on vital resource…. use it or lose it. Especially when there are other uses that are pending or could be brought to bear.
Wait and see. That’s all that to be done. But no way ought our government leave that RR corridor in the hands of CMRR as a private venture. The “who, me?” pose of lack of personal financial disinterest calls for some serious suspension of disbelief… the stuff of theatre.
Time for a Rail, With Trail
Surely some of those that live in, work in, and operate businesses in oppose the idea of a trail displacing an economic force that is the CMRR. No one, inside in Kingston or those that come from outside Kingston Oppose trails. A rail with Trail is extremely doable in Kingston. To paint us all with a common dark color is an injustice.
A New Rail Frontier
As much as I like professionals, they don’t always seem to be able to see beyond their boxes. I see the railroad’s proposal as a bold step forward for attracting economic growth into Ulster County. I have visited rail destinations and followed many new rail based projects and I am seeing how are they attracting new visitors and businesses. This includes Transit and heritage operations.
Rail is not passe and needs to be envisioned into a communities outlook. The future is upon us and it includes both Rails and Trails.
Two well-considered letters about the trail, which begs the question: who are we trying to convince here? There’s been no compelling counter-argument to the case that a trail would have great economic and public health value. No one’s shouting that they don’t want a trail in their neighborhood. No one’s saying that it isn’t high time we built modern infrastructure that helps us get around without driving. The only dissent is coming from a committed camp that wants to preserve the railroad above all else. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion, but when it comes to how we utilize public assets, it’s the voice of the majority that rules. And that voice has spoken, not once, but several times, through resolutions at the county and local levels. Time to get on board with the win-win rail and trail plan that has been put forward, and then let’s all get to work making it a reality! Wouldn’t that be great?
One camp wants to ADD trail while preserving an accessible, diverse and historic railroad. The other wants to destroy a railroad. The argument is not about one or the other. It is about the wrong one vs both.
No, I think this mischaracterizes it entirely. Accessible? How is a seasonal paid tourist attraction considered more accessible than a year-round ADA-compliant trail? Diverse? Not even sure what you mean – how is CMRR diverse? Historic? Sure, active rail is a great way to remind people of our region’s transportation heritage, but it’s not the only way. Getting people out by foot or bike on these corridors and providing interpretive signage seems likely to appeal to a broader audience at lower cost. You’ve got an interesting take on the “camps” involved. One could just as easily cast the sides this way: one camp wants to create a trail while preserving sections of rail, while the other wants to prevent the public from utilizing a property acquired with public funds, for public purposes. Hmmm.
Tim. Is OK to segment one mode of transpotation for another? Does that make sense? Wouldn’t that be Robbing from Peter to pay Paul as some are saying. A trail from Kingston west leaving the railroad with no chance of taking visitors to see the views of the reservoire, comes across as a monopolistic vision of “trail only” by a small group. Visitors to Ulster county along with locals, could and should have a choice. From what I have seen, The railroad has repeatedly said it would work with trail groups in building both rail with trail in this section. I don’t see that in return from trail groups. Nor from your comments. And that is sad. Would not working together in providing both rail with trail, not serve a broader audience as you say? So, Would you be willing to work with the ralroad in a rail with trail project? I’ll bet It would be cheaper if both groups pool their resources and works together on this project. It definitely would be quicker. Don’t you think? Or would you rather wait for the wheels of progress of Ulster county to turn? (I’m still waiting on that intermodal bus terminal to be built in kingston, or even a site to be picked, and that’s 10 years overdue with hundreds of thousands of dollars already spent)
“it’s the voice of the majority that rules”
I hope you are not delusional enough to believe that the trail only crowd is the majority. It is quite obvious to everyone that your group started a well orchestrated letter writing campaign over the last 2 weeks. And all from the usual suspects.
“No one’s shouting that they don’t want a trail in their neighborhood” You obviously haven’t spoken with the property owners along Route 28. The railroad has a great working relationship with most of these people, and they tell us something completely different from what you are claiming here. If the tracks come out, you will lose everything.
A very vocal minority can be much more powerful than a silent majority. We intend to change that in this case.
Rail with trail works
I don’t think you read my post, Tom. I don’t speak for any group, and I don’t argue for a trail only position. Glad to hear I’ve earned the notorious title of “usual suspect,” though! 🙂
If I stop for a moment, I guess it’s funny to see that we both claim to have majority support for our positions. I guess I’m not really clear on what yours is, though. You want to keep the rail intact, the whole way, from Midtown to Highmount? Can you understand why that’s problematic and how it would prevent a trail from being developed?
Can you please point to where I stated that the railroad should be intact to Highmount? Your question tells me that you assume I do.
To answer your question honestly, yes I would like to see the line extend back to Highmount but I realize it is not feasible at this time, and may never be.
Phonecia would be my choice. Midtown to Phonecia with trail along the entire segment. The trail can run alongside the tracks in most places and diverge from the corridor where it gets tight. This is an entirely attainable goal, BUT that is only my opinion. I form that opinion after countless hours running earth moving machinery and maintaining the tracks on the Kingston end out in the Hurley Mountain Road area. I see where and how it can be done.
The only thing stopping us is the constant bickering between the two groups spurred on by the politicians and the land trusts. I truly believe that the goal of the land trusts is to rid themselves of the railroad more than it is to build a trail. However I believe that Hein, the narcissistic politician that he is does want a trail with his name on it, one that will create his legacy. I can also plainly see that he doesn’t care who he has to step on to get that.
Do you ever notice how they never honestly address any questions or concerns about the property owners who will take to the courts in order to get their land back once the rails are lifted. Trust me on this one, there are many that plan on doing just that. This could take years of litigation and may never be solved. But the end result will be the elimination of the railroad, and …”sorry no trail either, but hey we tried!
Both groups should be working together without influence from the Politicians or the Land Trusts.
Tom, it saddens me that you so quickly resort to baseless accusations. If you think that somehow the “Land Trusts” are the enemy of the railroad here, you’ve not been paying attention. What this is really about is a small group of railroad enthusiasts who have gotten used to treating County-owned property as their own. That group’s complacency over the past 20+ years has left the corridor badly damaged in places, soured relationships with neighbors, and, in the process, generated nothing near the promised benefits. Time for plan B.
And by the way, you say we should work together without influence from politicians (i.e. publicly-elected representatives) and “land trusts,” but I guess you’re fine with letting a privately-held, for-profit company influence the use of public resources? Sounds fishy.
There was no option to comment on Mr. Weidemann’s note below where he says “I guess you’re fine with letting a privately-held, for-profit company influence the use of public resources.” Isn’t that what today’s Republicans have done and want to do more of?
From where I sit, “various land trusts” are only part of the problem; it’s mainly their collusion with political forces with axes to grind and something to prove, although what they get out of destroying a unique development opportunity that can ultimately benefit everybody is beyond me.
I’m a relative newcomer to the discussion, only over the last few years, so I don’t know the obviously acrimonious history. However, I strongly believe in Being Here Now. We only have today – this life, these opportunities, this railroad right-of-way. We need to get beyond living in the past. I am still unclear if the political hatred is directed against the CMRR or the actual railroad infrastructure itself. I do know this: today’s CMRR is making a more-than-good-faith effort to properly restore and operate the entire line, and has proven its financial worth with very few resources. They have shown that with the proper resources (the release of FEMA funding and the ability to spend on infrastructure instead of lawyers) they can make it work – and work well. Let’s not be shortsighted. Full rail with trail can make all parties happy. Let’s let it.
Mr Whyte, your last sentence “Both groups should be working together without influence from the Politicians or the Land Trusts.” is spot on point perfect.
“Both groups should be working together without influence from the Politicians or the Land Trusts.”
By this it appears that you fail to recognize the fact that the U&D corridor is owned by the county and controlled by the Legislature. The Legislature, i.e., politicians, are responsible for that county asset so it would be malfeasance for them to not be involved.
It is also evident that you fail to understand the large amount of funding available through land trusts that will be used to build and maintain the trail.
As such, what you propose is to take the land owners and major funders out of the mix and let the tenants dictate what happens on the property. In no world except CMRR’s fantasyland would such a scenario fly so forget it…
Mr. Take, from your comments above and subsequently (although there is no opportunity to comment adjacent to your latest), your through distaste for the CMRR seems obvious to me; whether it is personal, political or corporate is irrelevant for the moment. So let’s talk about the railroad tracks, infrastructure and the corridor itself.
Assume CMRR “goes away.” Another operator contacts you (from the tone of your posts, I assume you are some sort of principal in this) and wants to operate the entire line from Kingston west to Phoenicia with an adjacent trail as part of the proposal (paid for by the county, trail groups or whatever source). Truly, would you honestly even entertain such a proposal? And if so, under what circumstances?
And a follow-up: if you are indeed a decision-maker, and would not consider it, why are these discussions going on anywhere but in a court of law?
CP, No, I wouldn’t entertain a rail vendor running from Kingston to Phoenicia with a trail along side as it is not economically nor politically feasible. More specifically, while the right of way may be wide enough to accommodate both rail and trail the topography, wetlands and watercourses, and DEP policy preclude creating a new foot print to accommodate the trail.
To receive funding the multi-use trail needs to meet certain standards, e.g., 10 feet wide with 2 foot shoulders for a total of 14 feet. Plus, being next to rail a buffer is also needed. This is not a footpath, nor is it a hiking trail per se, it is a multi-use trail that will meet ADA standards.
DEP policy has steadily been that it’s either rail or trail. They will not allow an additional footprint to be built through their property. DEP in fact will be building trail through there themselves so that section isn’t even on the table for rail.
Tim, What I see here is that there are 2 groups. A group that wishes to see a railroad and it’s history presevered while building ( and willing to help build) a trail along side of the railroad between Kingston and the reservoire. And the other Group who wishes active tracks be ripped up or covered over so that a trail only would be built. As far as I’m concerned, it’s the taxpayer that is the majority. And Maybe a referendum is needed to settle this not politicians with personal agendas. In the mean time, Both groups should figure out a way to work togher in something that is a true compromise and not the ultimatum that was issued. Wouldn’t that be more productive? Wouldn’t that be great?
I should have known better than to try and reason with a member of a local land trust who constantly makes anti railroad remarks and then claims to speak for no group.
Tim Weidemann: WHAT majority? You have NO proof of that. What we DO have is the unilateral actions of a few officials, acting at the behest of an equally small group of trail supporters, who are trying to impose their will on the railroad. We have seen an endless campaign to harass and discredit the railroad and its supporters, including denial of FEMA funds to repair Irene damage, parking a city truck on the tracks to block train movements, among other things, capped by the County’s sham “notice to cure.”
Now we are seeing the Ulster County Office of Economic Development’s active censorship of any comments on their Facebook page that run counter to their trail-only vision. I was blocked for simply saying I support rail with trail. Funny, I thought government was there for all of us, not just a few elites. I might add that there has NEVER been any attempt to get the public to weigh in on any of this. All we have had have been a series of trumped up actions by the County Executive and his minions and a vote by the legislature based on faulty arguments and without any opportunity for the railroad to work with the county.
I might add the Hein has steadfastly refused to meet with the railroad to resolve differences. Instead, he has relied on bullying, intimidation, unilateral actions (such as the demolition of the bridge and several hundred feet of track at Big Indian) and legal threats to try to impose his will.
All of this has been aided and abetted by a small cadre of elitist trail supporters who want to destroy the last railroad in the Catskills (admit it: you don’t want the railroad around in ANY form), who have a remarkable ability to say anything to justify their position that the railroad must go forthwith. They like to trot any number of ginned up “studies” claim an economic miracle will occur if only we get rid of that nasty old railroad, even as they disparage real results of the railroad’s Thomas and Polar Express events. Of that last, only a fool would pooh-pooh that and yet that’s what we have in the form of Kingston’s Director of Development, who is yet a another cheerleader for trails and who also wants the railroad gone. He wastes no opportunity to criticize the railroad. So much for objectivity.
No, the public has not weighed in on this issue, but we DO have a county and city government which had been subverted by the trail movement for the furtherance of its narrow goals. Shame.
No no no no no. You attribute some made up accusation to me and then your trounce it!
The little rides this fall: It was a wonderful program! Continue it.
But as we were all taught as children and need to remember as adults: you don’t get more until you finish what was on your plate.
For heavens sake, take some responsibility! That blindness in no way attracts any trust at all… whether it is your fortune forever, your people demonstrate a perfect willingness to blame, to find fault everywhere but yourselves. And moreover, bottom line: you didn’t get the job done. Repeat: you did not get the job done.
Oh, lord, and then the times that despite your lease agreement, you were intentionally hostile to any notion that hikers might be welcome along the tracks! That was repeated to me several times just this last year. So much for hikers.
Most of us are simply observers, with no real dog in the fight but with at least a modicum of objectivity… the CMRR has established itself as an unreliable, contentious and uncooperative company… Very very glad that after several decades, you actually dug in an were a real draw to Kingston…
I’d have been thrilled with a RR, but the facts were against it and CMRR brought nothing to the table… not a scintilla of compromise.
So much comes to mind like “Individuals who would do good must do so in minute particulars… ” and “One summer doth not a summer make” …
Oh yea, and another you might embrace: “We have met the enemy and they is us.”
In the future, if I respond to the empty complaints of CMRRR at all, I think all they will deserve is “Fooey”…
“Fooey” says the person hiding behind the safety of a made up name.
You don’t have a dog in the fight?…please
Fooey.
For those of you who claim to have the majority of the people on the side of the CMRR, how do you explain the 18-4 county legislature vote to endorse ripping up the tracks in the city of kingston? Are you predicting/promising that thse 18 will be made to regret their votes when election day rolls around?
Two words: political pressure. Yes, let the voters speak on election day.
Ms. Wright and Mr. Goldman are looking toward the future and sound public policy. The failed experiment of running a tourist railroad on the entire U&D corridor owned by Ulster County has run it’s course… it’s time to move forward with the trail.
If CMRR manages to secure a new lease on the 2 miles from Kingston Plaza to Hurley Mtn Rd so be it. However, they have thus far blown off that compromise offer and their latest “business plan” (covering 2015-2020) makes it clear that they continue to blow off that compromise. Roll in the salvage crews…
There is new management at CMRR that has led to new success. Stop licking your chops, Mr. Take; it is unbecoming. The “compromise offer” is offering enough rope to hang the railroad with but not enough to build it out into what it could be and will be.
Again I ask – and I never get a straight answer – is the fight with CMRR itself or with the idea of a railroad running in the railroad corridor?
The fight is for the trail… with segmented rail as proposed by the county.
While a tourist rail operation may exist after may 31, 2016 it is unlikely that CMRR will be the vendor as they are in no way a “responsible bidder.” New management or not they are a for-profit corporation that lives on until dissolved. This regardless of who the management people are at any given time.
Any contracts the corporation officers signed are binding on the corporation regardless of who is now running the organization. I know this very well from my roles of president, trustee, and treasurer of multiple corporations and in my current role in a multi-billion dollar corporation.
There are contracts I signed 20+ years ago that are still in force and the corporation is still liable for performance under those contracts. CMRR has no special exemption from corporate or contract law… though come May 31, 2016 they could dissolve and let the creditors (including the county) pick over its bones in an effort to recover the losses they suffered through CMRR’s non-performance.
This is looking to be a fairly comprehensive dialog, old and new, about the rail and trail… it will make for a good document of record, worth preserving, and a good prerequisite reading for people who want to engage… the comment on “responsible bidder” is especially interesting
I made of pdf of the discussion so far.
It is the land trusts (in particular the brilliant Kingston Land Trust) that has delivered so much to this community and harnessed the labors of some very fine people) and the politicians as well that have shaken the CMRR and their supporters awake and into action… CM would also fit for ” Continuing Moribund”…
The RR people seem to find no place where they are responsible for their fate: that is hardly a group to put any faith into.
If we do get RR, it must be a not for profit public service which has worked so very well elsewhere… there is service in place, passenger travel, education and trails.
It is one thing to trip and fall: it is quite another to cry out and blame others.
CMRR seems like Rip Van Winkle, asleep and then awake to find the world has moved on.
I liked “Fooey” better….
Seriously, what were all of you “helpful” politicians doing to help CMRR move ahead? Sequestering funds for repairs? Ripping up trackage unilaterally and without reason?
What makes the private for profit business deserving of financial help aka charity? If they have been spurred to action it is only under the threat of death… like inducing a catatonic to move by putting them in fear of drowning.
Is it CMRR you love or some rail road service for people? Is private for profit business to be seen as a holy calling that cannot fail? Shall we cease all these onerous recalls of automobiles? remove all those pesky warning labels and truth in advertising?
You make unsupported statements and then rail and the imaginary injustices you just invented…: so it is just CMRR vs the public?
It’s not RR, it’s money? Or support of nobility, a dynasty?
CMRR is a really poor steward and we citizens are obliged to take care of what is in the public trust and improve it “for us and posterity”
If we don’t have RR, perhaps it is the failure of CMRR itself that put the stake in its heart.
aka, it you really think you’ve got a good horse, and it keeps losing, maybe you best change the jockey.
Fooey.
(Chose the one you like.)
Then change the jockey, K, and work it out with CMRR so that you aren’t wasting a lot of everybody’s money in the process. Get a new jockey you like who can fulfill the potential of the line.
BUT: it sounds like you want a lot more than “jockey change” – just a couple of rail stubs as curios (if even that) as opposed to the opportunity to a regional attraction that will bring money and positive attention to the city, county and region. The full length from Kingston to Phoenicia is such an attraction; a two-mile eastern section, while it made a VERY successful first step this year (in the stewardship of those people you can’t seem to stand for whatever reason), will be unable to grow beyond a local park attraction. Or maybe that’s what you want – to starve it to death so that you can say, “See, we told you so.”
It seems like you and Grover Norquist have something in common. He’s the guy who (in)famously said, “We don’t want to kill government. We just want to shrink it to where it will wash down the drain by itself.” That sounds to me like your wish for the railroad….
All these things you want and everyone else should do it for you… yes, that’s CMRR, but not at all someone willing to actually do the work.
And it’s all so simple: Monty Python has your number: “How to play the flute”…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNfGyIW7aHM
“How to get a really fine RR up just where you want it!”
do watch it, it is fun. and instructive.
You have no business plan, you have no cash flow, you have no notion at all that your idea has any financial merit… you merely carp and cry for money from other people…
The county cannot be so foolish and childish as to push huge sums of money towards a vaporous plan in a continuation of a 25 year plan that has brought a nice two mile run at the end only because it was forced to move.
It is easy for people to say and promise things for which they have no skill, no plans, no record.
CMRR et al have zero credibility, zero plans, and only discussions on a newspaper letters column to show for it.
This exchange will serve as written record to any and all who would want to repeat this proffering of empty promise.
We learned these rules as children: Said the pieman to Simple Simon, show us first your penny….” Did you think the lesson was really about pies and pennies?
Another lesson we learned as children, Mr. K, is that name-calling is unbecoming, but it is so often used when the facts go against you. I call your attention to this press release of two days ago, and the link within it which puts the lie to your claim that there is neither a business plan nor cash flow. I guess you are now the one whose credibility is in question. (At least AnotherTakeOnIt answered my comment with a reasoned and detailed reply, even if I might dislike his position.)
Here is the press release:
Kingston, NY — February 17, 2015 –The Catskill Mountain Railroad (CMRR) posted total ridership of 40,270 for 2014, a major increase from 14,823 passengers in 2013. Revenues also increased to an estimated $1 million in 2014/2015 up from $117,210 in 2013/2014, according to a statement released this week by the organization. The CMRR estimates its economic impact on Ulster County rose to over $3 million in 2014 from $1.3 million in 2013 with 75% of that impact centered in Kingston.
“If you look at the county’s major tourist attractions,” said CMRR President, Ernie Hunt, “you see Belleayre Mt. Ski Center, HITS, and the Headless Horseman. With more than 40,000 visitors between Kingston and Phoenicia, we are now within the top five tourist attractors in the county, and certainly the biggest in the city of Kingston.” Hunt went on to say that CMRR had incredible support from the Kingston area business community and we couldn’t have achieved these results without those collaborations. They provided critical goods and services that made these events special.
Kingston train operations saw passenger numbers climb to 31,289, up from 4,575 in 2013, an increase of nearly 700 percent overall, while the rest of the 40,270 riders boarded in Phoenicia. Of the Kingston riders, at least 21,278 came from outside Ulster County (21% NYC and Long Island, 21% Orange County, 18% Dutchess County, 17% other Lower Hudson Counties, 11 percent from other NY State Counties, and 12% from out of state) according to zip code analysis. The CMRR delivered significant numbers of riders directly to the doors of Kingston area restaurants and shops last year to do additional spending through the CMRR’s “Railroad Dollars” coupon program. Additionally, the CMRR purchased more than $300,000 in goods from 21 different Ulster County businesses.
Building on the improvements gained in 2014, the railroad has also released a new document, “CMRR Business Plan 2015 to 2020” (http://www.catskillmtrailroad.com/cmrr_business_plan_kingston.pdf), for the Kingston segment of its operations. The plan outlines how the CMRR can more than double its economic impact on Kingston and Ulster County to $7 million a year by extending its Kingston operations an additional five miles to the Glenford Dike on the Ashokan Reservoir. Its plan shows how the addition of a scenic destination such as the Glenford Dike, and adult-themed passenger rides, which require a longer ride and a scenic destination, will transform the CMRR into a major regional tourist attraction focusing on “experiential” tourism.
“Understanding “experiential tourism” is a critical concept for economic development in a tourism economy. Tourists not only travel to see scenic beauty, but also seek entertainment,” says Hunt. “Unlike recreational parks and trails, the railroad can combine the scenic beauty of the Catskills with the entertainment of a theme park. This is why the railroad experienced such huge growth in Kingston in 2014, through adding nationally-branded entertainment to its rides.”
Having identified the potential positive tourism and economic impact in the CMRR’s new business plan, Hunt, said a December compromise offered by the County Executive was a good first step in creating a comprehensive plan for the Ulster and Delaware corridor that includes a viable tourist train operation in Kingston. “Although we were never given a copy of the Executive’s proposal, the compromise as described in the executive’s press release to newspapers does seem to show that our differences in the city limits of Kingston are minimal. Even though we may differ on what length of railroad is optimal to create the maximum economic contribution to Ulster County, there is no reason we can’t immediately start working together on what we agree on, i.e., the railroad’s place in Kingston.
Hunt called for an end to the pointless litigation between the County and the railroad based on the County’s ongoing goal to terminate its lease prior to the natural 2016 expiration date. “As we enter into the last year of operation on our 25 year lease, the County’s continued efforts to terminate the lease serve no purpose, especially since the County seems to want the special events planned by the railroad to continue in 2015.” Hunt called on the County to cease its efforts to terminate its lease and put this litigation behind us so we can sit down and work out the best mixture of rail and trail in the corridor to create the most economic value for the County. More information on the CMRR and all of its activities is available at www.catskillmtrailroad.com.
Citizen K…Baloney. All you have is hate.
well, then you have a great misunderstanding…
you make take strong disagreement on facts as “hate”…
I just see the press release, 2/17/2015…
that’s two days ago… good grief… glad to have it, glad to read it….
and you don’t see that this and a lot more has been missing for years?
the picture got much brighter last year with some brand new and novel additions.
I’d surely like to see the lease continued and that operation repeated in 2015 and some conditional extension made based on performance. The RR does not have all the time in the world.
I don’t see that the county can or ought to terminate the lease early… I do not think they can win that in court, and I don’t think that they should. I think they may very well have to pick of the legal costs…
Both parties would be called upon to show damages… this last minute boost in activity is the way to go…
By all means, have another season at least…what comes after that depends…
That’s the conclusion I reached long ago and continue to have unless and until new facts are brought to bear.
the letter is very useful. keep it coming.
name calling? hate? rather than step up and discuss and go point for point, you go ad hominem.
heavens.
Wow! CP thank you for posting that. Looks like the railroad has brought something of economic value to ulster countys table. The question is, Is the Railroad the only ones at that table?
yes, that was a great post.
looking for a link directly to that press release.
http://catskillmtrailroad.com/ have it?
Here is a link to the CMRR fantasy…
http://www.catskillmtrailroad.com/cmrr_business_plan_kingston.pdf
There is total disregard for the probable vendor opportunity the county will offer for the Kingston section… with 66 weeks to go on the lease this does not bode well for their future.
Sorry you feel this way. A
negative approach taken towards a problem will most certainly yield a negative result. Glad NASA didn’t take this attitude with Apollo 13
Mr. Take, the demise of the rail corridor as a rail corridor is NOT a done deal. Real adults, when confronted with new facts, aren’t afraid to say, “Wait, maybe we made a mistake” and reconsider their direction. This can be a “two winners” rather than a winner-loser proposition.
Gloating, especially the premature kind, is unbecoming. I personally try to avoid it.
The reconsideration has already occurred! The Legislature voted 18-2 to pass Resolution 275 that set policy of trail only between Kingston and Boiceville. Later, upon review, the County Executive suggested a compromise that allows a train operation to continue between Kingston Plaza and Hurley Mtn. Rd.–as it did in the fall/winter of 2014.
The Legislature still has to approve the Executive’s compromise… Putting this in the context of CMRR steadily rejecting the revision (including in their new business plan) logic would suggest that there is no point in the Legislature modifying R275. As such the focus for rail should probably be on the western section of the corridor.
wow. after reading the 5 year plan you still come up with a negative take on it. your ‘handle” should be “another NEGATIVE take on it”
“Dismal Scientist” would be more accurate based on my early training… That combined with later training and roles as corporate officers and project manager helps me see that the underlying assumptions in CMRR’s business plan are fatally flawed. No amount of cartoon train glitz can prop up the faulty foundations upon which they try to build… Add to that the huge liability they have incurred by not meeting the conditions of the lease that expires in 66 weeks. As such, they are not qualified to bid on, let alone deserve, a new lease with the generous terms that are part of their business plan assumptions!
Trail supporters always seem to have an air of smug superiority, condescension and inevitability. Baloney.
That was a great post CP. Thank you for sharing it, now lets wait to see the hate filled comments that will inevitably spew from the trail only faction.
Rail with trail will work, just ask the merchants who’s cash registers start to ring when we run our special events.
If I were a supporter, I would post this link http://catskillmtrailroad.com/ with every comment and I would post a link directly to the press release or any similar content carrying documentation.
With every comment.
There on can see, for instance, that the 2015 will be an aggressive one, continuing the campaign that was launched in the fall.
Like Minnesota Fats says in “The Hustler”…” More pool and less talk,,Fast Eddie”
Great movie… absolutely worth seeing… the talented underdog goes against the system
If I were a supporter, I would post this link http://catskillmtrailroad.com/ with every comment and I would post a link directly to the press release or any similar content carrying documentation.
With every comment.
There on can see, for instance, that the 2015 will be an aggressive one, continuing the campaign that was launched in the fall.
Like Minnesota Fats says in “The Hustler”…” More pool and less talk,,Fast Eddie”
Great movie… absolutely worth seeing… the talented underdog goes against the system
Where is the link to the press release?
Citizen K: I am just calling them on their baloney. It’s not my fault they act the way they do.
That of course is nonsense: any judgment we make is subjective… (here you’ll want to see Hunter Thompson and Gonzo Journalism)
The term for that is naive realism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_realism_%28psychology%29
In kids we see them jumping off of the garage roof with a table cloth around their necks. In adults the certainty is manifested in self certainty… as in “I can see the baloney! Why is it they look at the very same thing and can’t see it!”
It also stems from a notion of belief: here’s another reference… (decarte’s error) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_realism_%28psychology%29
Citizen K: I will say your posts are more reasoned than most of what Trail Baloney has seen from trail supporters. More reason and less baloney is what we need.
Thank you.
I have not yet seen a link to the press release… does anyone have it?
Meantime, I see a comment where CMRR supporters feel the pain of NASA in putting up Apollo 13… see, now that’s just a terrible reach. And feeling is NASA had to suffer like CMRR, there would be no moon shot.
But I’m sure that’s just being tossed out there… It is frustrating when one’s heartfelt communication doesn’t carry the day… respect your opposition… if you have facts, real things, by all means share that.
That is not to say that the “facts” about the benefits of the trail are solid, must less guaranteed. But there is data to disagree with.
One thing the trail can do: leverage $ from environmental funding…
If there were more infrastructure funds, that would be a place to go to..
Has anyone thought about running light rail?
At this point, I believe the corridor is more suited to tourist rail and, possibly at the eastern end, to freight interchanged with CSX, possibly to a new transfer center near the Thruway exit – but that’s a completely different situation for another time. I have neither the first-hand knowledge or standing to address it directly.
Light rail as it is funded these days would require more urban or suburban-to-urban density. From my knowledge, the only thing that would come close to that in Ulster County would be a trolley line from Rondout to the denser uptown centers. If it could be operated as a non-profit by the trolley museum, it might be workable, but I don’t see the traffic volume to sustain a genuine light rail system at this time. (Nice thought, though.)
That portion of the RR is rather secure… it already has the support of the County Managers Office… for the RR people do not quickly disclose that information is deceptive and only cements distrust. The is very disappointing.
Given that, there is not a lot of need for discussion: it’s all about something else that has no plan whatsoever.
light rail would certainly serve tourist… and just about all the income to cmrr comes from that, including the big increase in 2014.
Is there any market at all for freight coming in to Kingston from the west? Is there any plan at all for that? Siting, environmental, market, etc?
Briefly, there are no plans that I am aware of, but I am not part of CMMR’s management or operations so I have no first-hand knowledge. It would make economic sense to me if there was a purpose to have a transfer yard near the Thruway, but as I said, that would be another issue entirely.
As a “fellow civilian,” I think the openness of the business plan speaks to the CMRR’s desire to build on the current success of the railroad. Since I am not part of anything to do with running the railroad, I can only speak for myself and don’t wish to exceed my limits. I do believe that as a railroad whose connection with the national rail network is currently out-of-service, I would expect all CMRR’s income to be from tourist-related enterprises.
the city has already put the kbosh on that scenario. there will be no trolley line to kingston porper, just a walking trail. real dumb
K, you totally missed my point Nasa took on an insurmountable problem of getting Apollo 13 back home safely. They had to think outside the box to get a positive result. If Ulster county and the railroad were to do the same in thinking outside the box. We would not be posting here today.
No, I did not miss your point: you compared cmrr to nasa. Life fixing a hangnail to the suffering of Jesus. The comparison is excessive, unseemly and a bit grandiose, Napoleonic…
That kind of thinking that is alarmingly off the mark, fantasy.
Heck, like my own writing here: we get too involved. It’s probably not all that, just sloppy thinking, a literary short cut to try to elevate the cause. Staying warm in this record making cold. Peace..
“The CMRR estimates its economic impact on Ulster County rose to over $3 million in 2014 from $1.3 million in 2013 with 75% of that impact centered in Kingston.” That’s great! Up town kingston really needs a nice economic shot in the arm.
Apollo 13? Baloney! Ha ha…seriously, I have tried the “just-the-facts-ma’am” and have gotten nowhere. It takes two to tango, you know. There are one or two reasonable trail supporters out there, but most others have a very hard attitude.
Enough of that. Light rail? Not enough density to make it work. The line will support a tourist operation and light freight. What’s really needed is an extension of Metro-North to Stewart Airport and up to Kingston and maybe a streetcar feeder, also at Kingston. The west side of the Hudson is at a distinct disadvantage compared to towns on the other side of the river.
We could have an excellent discussion about the viability of west-of-the-Hudson passenger service, but it is truly not relevant to the CMRR’s right-of-way and current situation. (For the record: I think it’s a good idea, but much additional track capacity would have to be built as the “west shore line” through Kingston is a high-volume freight carrier already. Plus, that passenger service would have to terminate at Hoboken, at least until, if ever, extra tunnel capacity is built into Penn Station. Such service would also require tying this freight-only line to the passenger grid, most likely NJ Transit. In summary, I don’t see happening anytime soon if ever. Nice idea, though – and it might have had a better chance if the new Tappan Zee Bridge was being constructed with rail capacity as had once been proposed.)
You’re kidding… we have a ton of freight moving through Kingston. None of that goes into the pockets of CMRR of course, so that doesn’t count.
Is there something besides a few words in a Kingston Times discussion that lays out this vision of a rail line from the airport to Kingston and west into the Catskills? to the resort? freight to the skiing area? freight? raw goods for manufacturing? carry tar sands?
Does anyone here know about links to information? How incredibly ancient and non productive.
Please – if you are addressing me, I am NOT proposing anything, simply observing. The railroad’s last pre-CMRR incarnation was as a freight hauler which was, of course, decades ago. Repeating: I have no standing to propose or dispose of anything regarding this issue relating to CSX, NS, CMRR or any railroad (even a model one). It is a non-issue and not relevant in this discussion. Please forget I even expressed the thought.
Just one reasonable idea on freight that I sent and was posted in the freeman. Officials are all complaining they have to thin out salt output on the roads the last few storms because of low supply. the county has a railroad. Why not use it……
” Ulster County has an asset that could solve this problem and keep our roads safer. It’s the railroad in Kingston, currently operated by the Catskill Mountain Railroad.
Ulster County, Kingston and other local municipalities along the I-87 corridor could form a road salt co-op. With storms averaging twice a week, the demand for salt is now at a premium. The big problem is shipping by truck and the lack of trucks available. This and the lack of salt has been a problem for a number of years at this same point in the winter season.
The co-op could buy salt in bulk and ship it by rail prior to the winter season. I would not think it would take much to build a salt transfer storage facility where the Catskill Mountain Railroad tracks cross under the Thruway or I-587 in the Midtown section of Kingston. Local municipalities could either send their own trucks to Kingston for pickup or hire local trucking companies to do the same.
Cargill and Morton Salt ship salt by rail. One nearby area that produces salt is the Finger Lakes region. Shipping in bulk by rail east through Albany-Selkirk, then down to Kingston, would be rather easy and cheap. What would be required would be the reinstallation of a track switch that would connect the Catskill Mountian Railroad with CSX in Kingston. Not that hard to do or get approved, I believe, when municipalities would be the benefactor of rail shipments and service. “
With the failure of being able to close the C9 bridge that would have Derailed Thomas The Tank and the potential fallout of 11,000 people in Kingston plaza spending money, Hein needed to rammed R275 through the ledgislature a week before “Thomas the tank” came to town (11,100 actual riders.) Political brinksmanship in action. Hein seems to have mastered that well in being one step ahead of an adversary. With the 275 vote, many ledgislators claimed they did not have the full picture or enough info prior to voting. And would vote “yes” with reservations. I would surmise the vote would have been rather different had it been cast a week after the last “Thomas” train ran
Agree, Tom. There should be an effort to develop rail freight services, bringing in gravel, sand, lumber, grain and salt. It’s usually cheaper to ship these items by rail and it would give the railroad a new source of revenue. It could be done if the County and city of Kingston were more cooperative. No baloney.
from the 5 year plan: this just is not true. It is an unsupported statement:
“Not allowing the extension would likely jeopardize the
$3m in existing economic value that the City of
Kingston and Ulster County realized in 2014 from the
CMRR’s Kingston operations, as it is unclear if rail
operations will be able to continue in Kingston without
the extension.”:
Which of the underlying assumptions of CMRR business plan are fatally flawed… it takes a bit of work to ferret that kind of information out, please share.
And the liabilities that have been incurred? that too. Are those quantified?
The CMRR tone has been “you must accommodate rail” but there is nothing that CMRR has done or even speaks of doing towards accommodating trail, ever. In this, and in other areas ( eg, projecting based on revenues from a single season, referencing other small train ventures without any information on the revenues from those ventures, growth, etc) CMRR has proved to be an unreliable partner.
Nonetheless, a point has been well made that the short tourist run from Kingston can be very attractive and that is being continued. That bears repeating: the existing track which has generated the revenue with some brand new ventures (which could have been in place a couple of years ago) If in the remaining time CMRR can actually demonstrate any kind of revenue producing operation on the remaining track, it’s hard to see that a lease should be extended for their operation: the track is not in use, and the right of way is not available to hikers.
Come spring it would be worthwhile for interested parties to personally inspect the entire rail path despite the reluctance of CMRR to participate or support such an activity. Again, it’s not clear that CMRR has been a good steward of the rail bed in the past, much less the future and the country could allow for a competitive bid.
The fault (with CMRR) is not in their stars.
It would be interesting to know the total $ paid to ulster country by CMRR and 1) the total actual $ spent in labor and materials in rebuilding the tracks 2) the monetized value of volunteer labor based on hours 3) the costs to CMRR from 2 serious washouts from flooding… 4) total value of running stock now held by CMRR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catskill_Mountain_Railroad
First off, I’m for a Rail with Trail. Where there is a will there is a way to have both side by side most of the distance between Kingston and Boiceville. There are a couple of bridges and rock cuts that require that the trail be “superimposed” between the rails Other agencies have installed decking between the rails that provides a smooth passage over narrow bridges. This design would also address our rock cuts in West Hurley. The frequency of trains and their speed shouldn’t be an issue. These shared distances could be handled much the same way in which road crossings are handled by the use of a flagman. By working together we can have the best of both Worlds.
Let’s stop all of the “I wants”. The corridor is about ALL of us! Let’s sit down and brainstorm a workable solution for a Rail with Trail. Other communities have done it. Is Ulster County so selfish that we can’t share?
The county legislature has formed a U&D Corridor committee to examine the best use for each section of the corridor. At their first meeting the committee members decided to walk the corridor in sections so that they see first hand what the corridor has to offer and its condition. One thing that will become abundantly obvious to them is that the railroad inspection report they received last year is quite accurate… ignoring the storm damage the rail infrastructure between Hurley Mtn Rd and Boiceville has literally rotted away.
DEP’s long standing position is that only the existing railroad track footprint will be allowed, i.e., rail OR trail, through the DEP property. In December 2013 they formed an agreement in principle with the county for trail only on the section.
Currently before the legislature is the contract between DEP and the county for construction of trail only between Boiceville and Basin Rd. This is within the DEP’s property and DEP will be putting up $3.5 million towards that trail which includes $2.5 million in direct payments to the county.
The committee will also be examining the various studies and inspection reports that have been done on the corridor in recent years. This combined with the walks will allow them to assess the strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats for the corridor.
The well informed U&D committee will give their recommendation to the Legislature. Under our constitutional republic, and its representative form of government, it makes perfect sense to have the well informed legislators decide how to manage this valuable asset. This is far better than having the ill informed general public decide how to manage the corridor.
Are you really afraid to hear from the public voices. I’m not really surprised. I would agree with your position if the County executive and the legislators represented ALL of the people of Ulster County and not just a select few.
Let the U & D committee hold public information meetings to discuss all options. then: LET’S HAVE THAT REFERENDUM!
Why am I not surprised that you are against a referendum. The public is not uninformed as you assume. You also assume that Mr. Hein and the Ulster County Legislator represent ALL of the Ulster citizens and not just a select few.
I would like to suggest that the U & D Committee hold public sessions to hear from the people at large. With what you believe that they know and the public input the committee would be better able to make a fair recommendation. I’m guessing that a piece of their recommendation would be to have a referendum.
LET”S HAVE PUBLIC MEETINGS & A RFERENDUM!
You seem to assume that the legislators have not heard from the public… That is a bad assumption as they’ve been bombarded by the CMRR supporters and trail supporters, as well as the county planning office and lawyers. The U&D committee will examine and summarize all the existing information and through data based decision making we’ll end up with county policy.
The policy may remain what it is under 2014’s R275 or it may be amended. Right now under R275 a segmented rail with trail agenda is in play with trail only east of Boiceville and rail operations to the west. The County Executive suggested that perhaps rail and trail could work between the plaza and Hurley Mtn Rd. I have no doubt that the U&D committee will be taking a hard look at this but it doesn’t mean they will amend the policy when all is said and done.
There is a study under way right now that is looking at the connection between the Hurley section of the O&W rail trail and Kingston (Kingston Rail Trail Project, PIN # 8758.04) to determine which corridor is most feasible. At the most basic level, the county owns that section of the U&D in fee whereas the O&W in that section is owned by multiple corporations. There are also myriad drainage issues on the O&W and the need for multiple new bridges to span drainage tunnels and what appears to be an agricultural underpass. It’s not a slam dunk either way…
There is also the roughly 11.5 miles through the DEP property that is going to be trail only… I don’t think anyone with full knowledge of the situation doubts that.
One other point is that whatever the policy ends up being it appears unlikely that CMRR will be the rail vendor post 5/31/16. It is hard to find any well informed individual who thinks that CMRR will be deemed a qualified respondent when the RFPs/RFQs go out. This due to performance issues under the current lease. For example, the licensed rail inspector’s report showed that CMRR is about 80% out of compliance with the lease in terms of rehabilitated rail. Since that report about a mile of track has been rehabilitated but they are also liable for another mile of track under the lease. It seems all but impossible for them to rehabilitate another 18 miles of track in the next 55 weeks. They certainly cannot pay for someone else to do it at the value they claim for such work at $250K/mile. That is $4.5 million of value that the county has not received under the lease.
If you provide the general public with honest and complete information, they will be well-informed. Are you afraid of a well-informed public voicing its choice by referendum?
There aren’t that many people who have taken the time to read all the available studies and plans that are already in the public domain… or examined the corridor first hand. Why would we expect them to do so now? There are the Alta and Comian studies, there is the licensed professional track study by HDR, there is the lease between CMRR and the county, there are the conceptual plans for the trail and rail… I’d be very surprised to know that more than 200 people have read them all and it wouldn’t surprise me to find out that the figure is more like 50-75.
As the Legislature’s U&D corridor committee vets the information and undertakes each segment site visit they will be among the best informed people around regardless of political alignment or preference. I’m inclined to trust the process.
NIce contribution to the discussion… the decking and all.
A picture of how this has been implemented would be nice too.
Thanks.
Let’s put the future of the Ulster and Delaware corridor up for a vote. We need a Rail with Trail referendum on which ALL ulster County residents have a say.
What you say Rail People?
What you say Trail People?