Shoppers peruse the produce opening weekend the Kingston Farmers Market. (Photo by Phyllis McCabe)
Guess you can file this under “Be Careful What You Wish For.” After the Kingston Farmers’ Market moved a block south to give Wall Street merchants more space on Saturdays, Wall Street merchants said at a meeting Monday evening that their businesses are now suffering.
Former market board member Jessica Applestone, owner of Fleisher’s Grass-Fed and Organic Meats, said her Saturday sales have plummeted more than 50 percent from last year’s market time, much to her surprise. Gabriel Vasquez and Susan Dixon, owners of Gabriel’s Café, said the market has been siphoning potential customers down the street. Gabriel Constantine, owner of Outdated Café, griped about the confusing new traffic pattern, claiming that shoppers are unaware that the top of Wall Street is now open and walk obliviously with baby carriages in the middle of the road. Shani and Denee Francese-Smith, sisters and owners of Sissy’s Café, both said they miss the farmer’s market and would kindly like the market returned.
Dunkin’ Donuts owner Nelson Sousa said his narrow coffee store has seen an increase in foot traffic, but it has not amounted to anything more than extra uses of his bathroom. Dunkin’ Donuts, he said, has become unduly congested by farm market shoppers filing to use the restrooms and leave without purchasing anything. In fact, he added, his store becomes so dense with market shoppers waiting for the bathroom, that actual Dunkin’ Donut customers balk at the line and move on. Sousa said that his sales are down 20 percent from last year.
Applestone said the market’s lack of communication was disconcerting to her, and wished to create an open dialogue with the market board to discuss options. One idea, of course, was to return the market to its original place, between John and North Front streets. “I have lost an incredible amount of business,” she stressed.
Applestone pitched the idea of allowing the impacted businesses to participate in the market in front of their storefronts to draw customers back down the block. “A lot of us are seeing the errors [in wanting the market gone],” she admitted. Applestone also wondered about hiring entertainment to entice shoppers up further, however figured it might be too much for the board to endeavor. Constantine presented the market board with a petition containing over 20 signatures of those who would like the market site restored.
Market board Vice-President Beth Bengston, who conducted the meeting, said that last year the all-volunteer board was hearing out people’s complaints about how the former location negatively impacted their business. Bengston explained that the market relocation was overall well-received, but knew that not everyone would be happy.
Market board president and Hudson Coffee Traders owner Donna Brooks later said the move came with the city’s insistence of the farmer’s market signing a lease — something they never had to do before — and explained that the former location did not allow for a straight fire lane. Moreover, it was a challenge cramming 38 vendors in the old spot. This new market location’s configuration, Brooks said, allows for a wider and straight fire lane, unencumbered by upper Wall Street’s Pike Plan bump-outs. Brooks also pointed out that many of the storefronts on upper Wall Street also have private residences living upstairs, thus increasing the risks of fire danger.
Brooks said she has heard almost all positive and supportive comments on the new location, much to her relief. She said frequently hears enthusiastic comments appreciating street’s large trees and how the open space feels less closed-in. “With change, you never know what will come with it, but I was surprised by all the good things I keep hearing,” she said.
it would be so good to see what was said before the market moved… there are 20 signatures now, I assume there were signatures before? And what was the data like before…
And heavens, talk about a switch! you mean the farmers market was actually bringing business to the business district…
I think that in the future, when business people make claims, we demand some real informaiton.
And of course we have “boy, wait until the pike plan gets torn down! then we’ll really have great business!!)
oops.
Two issues:
1) “The market, she said (Brooks), is willing to allow businesses to vend in front of their stores to draw customers down…” So who gave Donna Brooks the power to bestow her blessings on whether or what or when a store can sell? “allow” huh??? The market does not “allow” businesses to do anything.
2) The businesses uptown should never be called “vendors.” The farmers, craftspeople, and people who sell on the street are what is commonly referred to as vendors in our current lexicon. The “merchants” and “business owners” who invest daily in this community should not be referred in such a cavalier way. That is insulting.
This whole issue boils down to respect, which seems to be in very short supply in Kingston of late from the top of our city government down.
The people who run the Farmer’s Market have consistently treated the “merchants” and “business people” with disrespect and disregard. And obviously from this article, they consider the business people who come here and work like dogs every day building the community and providing year round service as nothing more than transient street vendors. The businesses are here every single day contributing to the community. The farmer’s market is here one day a week for about 40 weeks a year and for five hours of time at that.
Mr. Berke, you ask how many people signed the petition “approving” the move. No one did. Because most businesses in uptown had no say in the decision, and no one had any knowledge of it until it happened. There was no forum or meetings to discuss how it would impact the businesses in uptown at all. It was just “done” with no transparency whatsoever.
Many of the retail and restaurants in uptown that have opened in the last year, opened with the understanding that the Farmer’s Market was such a successful event and brought significant crowds. They opened their businesses based on that understanding.
Yes, there were a couple of older merchants that complained, but none of the new businesses did.
Like I said, the Farmer’s Market staff and organization treats many people in uptown with disregard and disrespect because they feel they are above every one else due to the praises and kudos that the Farmer’s Market has gotten over the years. And Donna Brooks’ comment implying that the “market will allow” businesses to do something underlines this attitude that the market thinks they “rule” uptown. And yes, I am very aware that Ms. Brooks is a business owner in uptown, but the fact that she even said that alarms me.
I don’t talk with anonymous people. I avoid reading the stuff anyway because anonymous comments are often angry name calling rants… you wanna talk, use your name or find me and call me… you have my name.
Oh please – get over yourself. If the businesses are failing at 50% rate of decreased sales then they aren’t doing such a good job, are they?! Stop being insulted and start being smart – team up with The Market and benefit from the foot traffic. Your argument is flawed and is a clear indicator of why you folks aren’t succeeding on your own. Point blank, you need the Farmer’s Market more than they need you. So what do you want to do? Get on board or shut down? I know what I’d do.
Please tell me how my argument is flawed.
Well what on earth did this people THINK WOULD HAPPEN?! There is such an antiquated, out of touch view by merchants, planners, economic planners around here it drives me insane!!!! From the Town and Village of New Paltz fighting against consolidation to the nonsense of the town leaders wasting time fighting against Jason West; to Rosendale’s hippy platoon fighting against Williams Lake; to merchants in Kingston wanting the market moved away only to find that hurts sales!!! The PC brigade around her have no concept of business or how to market, brand and GROW BUSINESS. It’s 101 – you take away several thousand people from in front of your butcher shop and move them down the street – YES! YOUR SALES WILL GO DOWN 50%. For all the complaint about taxes, no growth and no jobs around here the local-yocals do NOTHING but fight in a manner that is a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure. William Lake should be built by now…the Kingston Farmer’s market should be encourage to double in size and clog up all of the sidewalks with people! New Paltz should consolidate and build their stupid new high school! I look at my hometown in another state where unemployment is 5% and job growth is among the highest in the nation and it is because town and county work TOGETHER; people APPROVE PROJECTS not fight them; taxes are LOW; and growth is HIGH! Until people around here stop fighting, stop blocking and stop living in some PC wonder-world they will never succeed.
I probably would have said it differently but your right. We’ve got to ramp things up and give our town the environmental climate of a place that wants to succeed. Bread Alone put up a booth right in front of my favorite cafe (Hudson Coffee Traders) But the cafe stepped up by putting its own booth out. Something they probably would not have done if the Market never came.
Basically, everyone has to step up their game a bit and some friendly competition that benefits the whole area is in order. Some people want things to stay small, quiet, and simple. Like you said, “self-fulfilling” and
Its rather cute and cozy for everyone to have their own private square. But the bottom line is…we need some foot traffic and what a better way than the Farmer’s market.
Agreed, no complaining allowed and the project should be even bigger:)
Hudson Coffee has been in the market for years. I am sure it had little to do with the fact that Bread Alone had a booth. Also, the owner of Hudson Coffee is the President of the Farmer’s Market Board, so again, it had nothing to do with Bread Alone. In fact, if anything, Hudson Coffee has the inside track to pretty much get whatever they want out of the market. However, another bakery and coffee shop in uptown has been blocked from participating in the Farmer’s Market for years. Makes you wonder why???
Besides all the benefits that we’ve already discussed, what would be in it for Tim? Initially I had never considered the farmer’s market in such depth. But the amount of conversation around this market, now…its got me thinking.
Whats in it for the Board? OR, are some business uptown sincerely getting involved out of good will for the town? Hey, I’ve got a little bit of controversy in me too. lol
-Thanks for responding
J.
Thanks for this fantastic article on the Farmer’s market! I’ve been attending the market with my eleven month old Bull Dog for the last several weeks. And I would say we have to look at the big picture and the long term effects of the whole market.
For example, the farmer’s market is the only reason why I elect to go uptown on Saturday mornings. As a personal trainer and nutritionist I also think its a great place to hang out. There are plenty of people up there walking, interacting, and generally spreading the feeling of Good health.
Furthermore, I am actually meeting some of the business owners for the first time. And even though I haven’t spent lots of money in their shops, I am beginning to bond with Kingston. Isn’t that great? I actually began reading Ulster Publishing as a result of seeing a friend of mine who works for the publication in front of the cafe.
I also speak as a ex small business owner of a personal training studio in Woodstock New York. My studio was located across from the Woodstock Playhouse. Often times, the customers would park right in front of my business. But I had to remember that my business was not the only thing that helps out the town.
Therefore, when it comes to the Farmers Market, local business, parking, and location issues, I think its best to see the big picture which is an overall improvement in the environment of up town kingston. I love it!!!
A lovely comment that adds nicely to the article… thanks
To clarify…what was written about my “allowing” merchants on the street was taken out of context of a bigger/longer conversation that was had between the market board and the merchants, including Jessica Applestone. It was a response in reference to a solution posed. I in no way think that decision can be made by the market. It’s a decision to be made by the merchants and the city.
I know Carrie Ross Jones, and she is far too professional of a journalist to take comments out of context in this manner. You undoubtedly did “say” this.
Word on the street is a tremendous disappointment in the market over the last few years with redundancy of products, with professionally made products being allowed in as “crafts” (i.e., a bookseller selling books published in the U.K.?), with farmers and other vendors coming in from outside of the Hudson Valley (really, do we need farmers and other vendors coming in from New Jersey). I thought this market was about helping Kingston and the Hudson Valley. Kingston Farmer’s Market has always had the reputation of being a local market steeped in sustainability, but it seems since the new management (Fitzgerald/Fitzpatrick) took over several years ago, it is slowly becoming nothing more than a flea market with a few vegetables thrown in. Yesterday, it was a beautiful day and there were many empty spots where vendors didn’t show up or they couldn’t get the spaces filled, there were hardly any shoppers walking around. And God forbid you try and discuss your concerns with anyone who has anything to do with the market!
I moved to Kingston six months ago and I’ve been reading the Kingston Times to find out about what goes on in this town. Having read this article before attending the summer uptown market led me to believe there was some sort of problem there. But I’ve come to realize that the Times likes to incite controversy where this is no need. Of course the market was wonderful and I came home with the freshest produce and local products imaginable, all at reasonable prices. I had a delicious lunch at Sissy’s, met some nice people, and noticed a steady stream of customers coming in there to either sit down and eat, or get one of their kombuchas or smoothies to go. Parking was no problem, as market customers were constantly coming and going. Lots of people walking around looked like they came from out of town, and there were groups of cyclists who made a choice to stop in uptown Kingston for refreshments.
At the bottom of the first page you state “Brooks said she has heard almost all positive and supportive comments on the new location, much to her relief.” Okay- then why write an article entitled “Wall Street Vendors Say Markers’ Market Shift Hurting”? Beyond that, it was written less than three weeks after the launch of the season. If there is a drop in sales for some businesses, it might be a little early to be reporting on that.
Kingston Times, please report on what’s great about Kingston instead of fishing for problems. If you perceive that Kingston isn’t reaching its potential, then try to help rather than hurt. Articles like this serve to cast a negative light on something that’s really great about this town. How about taking time each week to highlight a different market vendor? Or providing hyperlinks in your articles so readers can find out more about the businesses you cover?
That’s a good point… the article was unnecessarily “newsy”: there is an uptown business association, there is a famers market organization… not clear why this wasn’t just business as usual, to be discussed and resolved as an internal matter. I got the feeling someone at Ulster Press (whose office is, ummm, on Wall Street), had an ax to gring and was too glad to see the move of
the farmers market not carry Uptown to a giant hug in by all parties. Yes, Schadenfreude: that’s the feeling of the article.
Revision of the previous comment:
I moved to Kingston six months ago and I’ve been reading the Kingston Times to find out about what goes on in this town. Having read this article before attending the summer uptown market led me to believe there was some sort of problem there. But I’ve come to realize that the Times likes to incite controversy where this is no need. I visited the market yesterday and course it was wonderful, as I came home with the freshest produce and local products imaginable, all at reasonable prices. I had a delicious lunch at Sissy’s, met some nice people, and noticed a steady stream of customers coming in there to either sit down and eat, or get one of their kombuchas or smoothies to go. Parking was no problem, as market customers were constantly coming and going. Lots of people walking around looked like they came from out of town, and there were groups of cyclists who made a choice to stop in uptown Kingston for refreshments.
At the bottom of the first page you state “Brooks said she has heard almost all positive and supportive comments on the new location, much to her relief.” Okay- then why write an article entitled “Wall Street Vendors Say Markers’ Market Shift Hurting”? Beyond that, it was written less than three weeks after the launch of the season. If there is a drop in sales for some businesses, it might be a little early to be reporting on that.
Kingston Times, please report on what’s great about Kingston instead of fishing for problems. If you perceive that Kingston isn’t reaching its potential, then try to help rather than hurt. Articles like this serve to cast a negative light on something that’s really great about this town. How about taking time each week to highlight a different market vendor? Or providing hyperlinks in your articles so readers can find out more about the businesses you cover?
I’m heartened to see the interest people have in their community. As an owner of a store on Wall St. affected by the Kingston Farmers Market (KFM), I’ll share some real time data which may offer some understanding.
Firstly, for the record, the KFM is a good market and it’s well run. My family and I frequently buy vegetables and occasionally lunch there.
Secondly, Ulster Publishing and feature reporter Carrie Jones Ross deserve credit for reporting this story, in part because it reveals the affect that moving the KFM one block south has had on the perceptions of some local merchants and residents, and importantly because perceptions influence actions.
Thirdly, what seems like an obvious benefit, i.e. the pedestrian foot traffic drawn to the KFM, could actually be having a detrimental effect on Wall St. businesses and the development of the uptown business district in general, as too many business people seem to link their success to the market rather than their own skill and prudence in creating an attractive business.
My view in this matter begins at the end of 2005 when we moved our store, Traders Of The Lost Art, Inc., from Greene County to Wall St. From the first day that we opened full time and every day thereafter, I took a mid-day subtotal so that I could get a sense when business was best. We also juggled the days around, starting out with five days per week, keeping only Thursday, Friday and Saturday constant, eventually settling on just Wednesday through Saturday.
We hit the ground running. 300 plus of our old customers followed us, mostly Woodstock, Saugerties and Kingston residents. Our business grew. But after three years an interesting anomaly appeared, and after five years we were able to conclude the following:
1. The KFM customer is loyal, and visits the market frequently year after year.
2. The KFM customer base is mostly local and changes little from year to year.
3. The KFM sets up during the best business season of the year, during the best shopping hours of the week, i.e. Saturday morning-afternoon, benefiting from the uptown business districts’ natural attraction to visitors and tourists.
4. The KFM, when blocking off Wall St. between North Front St. and John St., prevents visitors to the area from driving down the street or walking the street without distraction, resulting in potential sales losses.
Our basis for these claims, esp. the losses in potential sales, is based on a simple analysis of all of our daily sales, including mid-day totals, for the six years from 2006 to 2011, resulting in the following business data:
1. Summer months average 30-40% higher sales than winter months.
2. Saturdays average 40% of weekly sales totals (based on a 4-day work week).
3. The loss of potential sales we attributed to the blocking off of Wall St. between North Front St. and John St. During the summer months when business is up 30-40%, KFM Saturday morning-afternoon is up only 10-15%, suggesting potential sales losses of 15-30%, or thousands of dollars over the course of a single season.
4. The anomaly was that 2006 yielded our best KFM season of Saturdays ever, and even as our business continued to grow, each KFM season of Saturdays in the ensuing years showed diminished sales relative to the growth of our business. If our business was growing, why would sales diminish in that one singular time slot, especially since most people who initially came into our store during a KFM Saturday morning-afternoon continued to be among our best customers in the years that followed? In addition to concluding that the KFM customer base is relatively static from year to year producing few new customers, those particular customers now shop our store during non-KFM hours. Speculatively, as locals they likely would have become customers anyway, most likely sooner than later.
I congratulate those in charge of the Kingston Farmers Market for moving the market one block south and opening up Wall St. between North Front St. and John St. It took reason, courage and consideration to do so. The market has been a great asset for amusement for people to visit uptown. Perhaps the vendors are even paying their obligatory share of sales taxes into our community as the store merchants are required to do. In its’ present location, it is a great adjunct to the Wall St. districts business potential. It no longer crowds it, clouds it, or defines it.
On a final note I would like to say that we spent six years building our business, collecting data, without saying a word even after discovering huge potential sales losses due to the KFM. Although it’s too early in the season to definitively say what effect the opening of Wall St. is having with the KFM moved one block south, I can tell you that this Memorial Day weekend was the best one ever, and that the pace and quality of sales so far this season suggest that this could be our best season ever.
Nice work! Thanks. I don’t know that you ought not to have “said a word”… it’s just information, some things work directly, some indirectly… I can’t imagine that the Farmers Market does not have a round the year effect of how people feel about Uptown, and all that has to be good.
And it’s good to know that it isn’t all roses, remind us that some people have to pay a little bit more than others… so, thanks for that, too
Mollie, thank you for taking the time to comment on this story. A few thing to clarify: I did not seek to “fish for problems” as you stated, rather, an impacted and worried store owner called our office and asked for us to be present. It is not for us to “perceive whether Kingston is reaching its potential”. That’s your job as a resident. Our job is to report on what issues we observe, or are brought to our attention. Should I have turned away a concerned and impacted business owner calling to ask for a voice, in the event it might cast a “negative light”? Like many of the other posters, I too patronize the farmer’s market, and am grateful for the ability to do so.
We are 100% local news and advertisers. Nearly every week I personally highlight and feature a business owner or community member. Buying our paper on the newsstand, subscribing or e-subscribing is patronizing our small-but-mighty newspaper company and all local advertisers as well. Thank you for your subscription– it goes a long way!
The general rule for getting things done is to take the problem to someone who can do something about it… Uptown has a record of not doing that… and here the Times is helping them be irresponsible and disconnected.
There is KUBA, there Is Pike plan, the area is incredible compact and delightful and surely a meeting is really easy to be held… all walking distance, flat ground, tons of meeting space.
There are some wonderful communication ventures (We’re Open, and there’s the Opera House which is very helpful and supportive…
Did the Times say gee, how did you come to this conclusion the first time, and who have you talked to this time? And what did the people think about that placement?
Scott Tillet of Beahive sponsored a civic gathering a year or two and drew very little attendance. And while our current mayor is tons better than Sottile, there is a whole lot of upside needed to demonstrate open and friendly communication with business and citizens… actually, leader ship is what’s needed. And yeah, youi can lead from behind, by encouraging existing groups to handle problems, to communication, to take requests to the mayor redirect them to the department responsible without prejudice, to set an example of responsive communication to the publc…
That being said, there are some wonderfully open and inviting businesses popping up and existing businesses working to improve… Stockade, Opera House, BSP, Edelweiss Soap….
One thing that needs to be covered: small shops cannot just sell things: they absolutely must sell themselves, as merchants, citizens, friends and capable, helpful professionals. I don’t know if it’s sad or not but it is true: if people don’t like you, they will avoid dealing with you, they will not want to buy things from you or own things that the have bought from you.
I don’t think the people that frequent the Farmer’s Market thought that chasing that meet and greet and shop celebration was a nice thing to do. Maybe because of that they don’t like you quite so much and it will take a while before they get over that.
And the Times aka “who, me??”, is a superb journal and they have a right to mess up once in a while… lately they’ve been exercising that right a little much, making up for lost time perhaps. But it is a superb journal.
Hi Carrie-
I actually had a conversation with owners of one of the uptown stores today. I might have been wrong to say that there’s no problem and I shouldn’t have presumed to know everything after visiting the market as a newcomer. But what I am saying is, and Gerald helped to clarify, that maybe this isn’t news. Maybe this is something for those concerned to work out on their own. I know Kingston has issues. I show concern because I am considering being a part of Kingston’s businesses community, and possibly buying property here. It isn’t hard to see what Kingston’s problems are, even after spending a little time here. But on the other hand, Kingston has a lot going for it. And I think it would be more beneficial for a local paper to highlight what’s great about this town instead of reporting on every squabble that goes on. I brush over many of this paper’s articles because I just don’t want to read “he said, she said.” I don’t want to have to know the history of the infighting. I want to know about the larger issues. And I think some larger issues could be covered, if you’re concerned about helping to make Kingston great. It’s just that some of the things this paper covers seem like small potatoes.
So to answer your question, no, I don’t think it was your responsibility to report on this. Like I said, I thought your headline was misleading. And to cover things like this does give visitors and potential residents and investors a bad taste in their mouth about Kingston. Sorry, but that’s just what I believe. Help to build Kingston up, ignore the squabbling, and focus on the bigger issues.
“I don’t think the people that frequent the Farmer’s Market thought that chasing that meet and greet and shop celebration was a nice thing to do. Maybe because of that they don’t like you quite so much and it will take a while before they get over that.”
Gerald- can you clarify this?
And Carrie- not sure where you’re headed with the information about subscribing to your paper?
not clear what you want clarified? Is the basic idea not understood, disagreed with, or you think it isn’t operational in this instance or completely insignificant?
I personally don’t like to shop in unhappy, contentious areas. There is contention in uptown about the farmers market. The Times magnified that contention. I don’t figure I’m much different from anybody else, so if I’m bothered, so might someone else be.
Yes, the basic idea is not understood. I don’t know what the “meet and greet and shop celebration” was, nor who chased it, nor what you mean by “chasing.”
This is kind of what I’m talking about- Kingstoners (and I assume you are one, meaning a long-time resident) assuming people who are new to town know what they’re talking about. Or even guessing that people outside the community, or who are new to the community, might even care what goes on here. An online newspaper can be read by anyone in the world. It shouldn’t take deep knowledge of Kingston’s present drama to be able to understand what is written in this paper. I’ve found myself thinking too much about this this weekend! I’m most concerned with how Kingston can move forward. I think this town has a lot of potential.
Oh, i missed the confusion… the “meet and greet shop celebration” was a bit of poetic excess: I was referring to the farmers market, where people are about 10 times more likely to meet and greet their friends than in regular shopping… the farmer’s market is more than shopping… it is a person to person exchange of labor and money, dogs, bikes, kids… it is a bit of a carnival, a celebration…
And the “chasing” referred to the fact that the market was just moved away from one street to another because the people on the previous street felt the market was hurting their weekend business. And now the paper says the same people are saying that moving the market away is hurting business.
And it is a local matter, and a bit esoteric.
KingstonTimes does write well, and their articles generally tell the full story…. that’s quite a feat in this day and age.
My wife and I are relatively new residents of Kingston, having moved here from Red Hook senior location, for two prior years, before that LA, NYC,Newark, NJ & Oakland CA. I can assure you that in my observation, Kingston has everything that those big urban areas have, a media center, ellenbogen 21/7, for example, as my wife’s son was in the entertainment field and I was a courier to the three tiers of the trade. The farmers’ markets in Hollywood is four to five times or more larger than the Kingston event and is a weekly celebration that did not generate this kind of controversy or if it did, I never heard of it. Manhattan had a market @ union square that was about the same size, ca. 1980’s, it is a service like any other that the transient biz provides, so one might want to consider counting blessings rather than minor insignificant annoyances